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Stick a fork in it. Myst Online: Uru Live is done.
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Professor Askew
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That theory certainly does make some sense...though it doesn't thrill me as a paying customer. But really, it still doesn't explain why GameTap got into the Uru business in the first place. How short-sighted could they have been? Especially knowing what had transpired between Ubisoft and Cyan. Actually, I guess we know the answer to that now, too.

Well, I'm through asking questions. I guess I'll spend the next forty or so years of my life looking for some closure. It's very, very silly but I can't seem to put it all behind me...which I've stated ad nauseum and for that I apologize. I will most likely continue to pop my head in here daily for news and what not. I will follow the Myst movie web site and watch their progress. And of course, I will follow avidly any news about D'ni's future.

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts, everyone.
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Lord Chaos
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had never played on-line before coming to Until Uru in 2005, so I had no model. I naturally assumed that the way Uru works is the way everything else works. Cyan would surely have looked at other games and found out what works.

Well, I was playing Guild Wars a couple of days ago with a fellow Uru-player, and she said "It's very nice to play a game where there's something to do." I'd just showed her the Collector and she'd just acquired a new pair of boots. Simple, but it's a level of interaction with the game that Uru never had.

There are many ways a player becomes connected with Guild Wars. You run around and find some NPC with an exclamation point over their head. Click on the character for interaction. You'll most likely be offered a quest, and these range from serious to silly. So, you take off on your new quest. You have a Hero assigned to you and you can also pick up some helpful henchmen, all NPCs who follow you. You amble around, explore, find other NPCs with quests. A quest might involve multiple locations and talking with a few people, and they're often unpredictable.

And before you know it, you've learned a lot about how to interact with this large, complex and detailed world. So, clearly, the Uru model isn't the only one. Would it be that hard to have some kind of quest in Uru? You run into Watson someplace, and he says he's too busy to undertake a task, and asks you to do it. You fetch a book from someplace. As a reward you get accress to his library, or something.

The disconnect discussed above is something I'd wondered about, but it really came out during the DRC Liaison mess. The door opened, a tidbit was flung out, and then the door slammed. There was, really, no DRC to have liaison with. What were they thinking? There needed to be some guidance, and that's how everything else went. It's as if the Ship of Cyan sails this sea without reference to anything else: you stay on board, or you're free to leave. You have to trust Cyan for the destination, and I've run out of faith.

Guild Wars has been quite an eye-opener for me. There are low-effort ways to interact with players, and they work. There is more to this game than "levelling up," for which I'm glad. I think Cyan should send an emissary or three into that game, and others, to bring back some ideas on how these things work.
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Zardoz
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Chaos wrote:
It's as if the Ship of Cyan sails this sea without reference to anything else: you stay on board, or you're free to leave. You have to trust Cyan for the destination, and I've run out of faith.

Spot on, Lord Chaos. It's reflected in things like how rarely Cyan shows up at game developer conferences - they have set themselves apart from other game developers, and have stubbornly stuck to their own vision. From an artistic point of view, I respect that; from a practical point of view, there are so many things Cyan could have learned from other developers about MMOs and just plain human beings, it's a shame (or so I perceive) that they've chosen to go it alone. They now reap what they have sown.
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Rils
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Chaos wrote:
Guild Wars has been quite an eye-opener for me. There are low-effort ways to interact with players, and they work. There is more to this game than "levelling up," for which I'm glad. I think Cyan should send an emissary or three into that game, and others, to bring back some ideas on how these things work.


I totally agree with that. Strangely enough, Guild Wars is the only other MMO I play, and the first I ever tried after Uru. I had this bias against the WoW sorts of games, but eventually my curiousity got the better of me, and since there is no monthly fee for it, I picked GW. My eyes were opened to a whole new world...

LC has exressed my thoughts exactly. Uru has so much it can learn from other games like GW, or LotRO, or others of that genre. I fear that in Cyan's quest to do something different that a "traditional" hack-n-slash MMO, they've completely ignored the millions of man-hours that have gone into developing those sorts of games. Sure, they may not want to do a WoW knock-off, but with 8+ million players, there's got to be SOMEthing that Blizzard has done right... "Examine it, learn from it, and adapt it to your own vision" I say.

In all fairness, I can't believe that Cyan never looked at other MMO's to see how they work. And I'm sure I've seen various Cyantists comment that they play WoW or other such games. But there is so much to be gained from implementing some of the features of those games! The sheer enormity of the landscapes. The gameplay mechanics of interacting with NPC's, that allow for something to "do" besides wander around and talk to people, hoping some minor piece of story element will happen during the hour a day you spend online.

It might behoove Cyan to have a "Lessons Learned" meeting with some of the more "dedicated" and reasonable fans (like us Very Happy ) to find out just what they've shot at and missed...
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Professor Askew
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rils wrote:
It might behoove Cyan to have a "Lessons Learned" meeting with some of the more "dedicated" and reasonable fans (like us ) to find out just what they've shot at and missed...

Wouldn't that be nice? If Cyan met with TGT in a round table discussion to.....eeeeeeeeeeeh fugedaboutit. What am I thinking?
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Durin Mephit
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're dreamers, it's in our blood.
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Cycreim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And of course let's not forget that Cyan could have taken a lot from other games, not just MMOs. Heck, look at the Sims, which displaced Myst as the best selling CD-ROM game back when. The success of the Sims wasn't just due to it being a fun game... it engaged players because it was fan-expandable.

One of the first games I got totally obsessed with was a Mac game developed by Ben Spees and published through Ambrosia Software called Harry the Handsome Executive. It was a fun game, with clever writing, but what really made me register was that it had a level editor. In fact, looking back, nearly every shareware game I registered for, I registered because it had a level editor. And I ended up coming close to finishing an entire expansion pack for Harry... 15 pretty extensive levels, which I sunk countless hours into producing.

There was a small community that formed around this game, everyone producing their own sequels and prequels to the game's story. It was really something special.

I've advocated that Cyan create things which would reward players for their energy without requiring them to be there at all times. I kept using the garden example... you have a garden, if you tend to it, you get healthy plants. If you don't, it gets overgrown with weeds. Other people can see your plants, but whether or not your plants are healthy doesn't prevent you from "moving forward" in the game. It's rewarding, it build attachment, but it's not traditionally "fun".

Uru was about the explorers, but it wasn't nearly empowering enough to them. The most effect they could have on their surroundings were to have doors open or shut, have objects pushed around, or upload things to imagers. Explorers were MAKING SCULPTURES out of the CONES. That should say something about what players what to do in that environment. I'm shocked that Cyan didn't take the artistic impulses of the players and run with it.

All of these things and more could be achieved if Cyan were to republish the game under fan power. I'm like, probably beating a dead horse here, but man it makes so much sense to do that. With fans, anyone can create elements which make the game fun to THEM, and as things to do increase, the probability of there being things to do that are fun to YOU also increases.
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Professor Askew
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you 100%, Cyc.........in additon to what was said above.
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Erik
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think all this could have come true... Remember that Cyan was working on the Guilds and all that, perhaps we would have got a way to really contribute to the game, that would be a great step towards a more interesting MMO.

MOUL was only there for one year, and Cyan was working with a low budget. I guess it was hard enough to get everything up and running during this first year. During this first year Cyan created some good foundations, fixed problems, etc. You could argue that Uru has been in development for 10 years, but this was the first time it actually launched, they couldn't know how everything would play out beforehand.
I think that after the first season Cyan would have had implemented more of those features that add to an MMO's qualities. All evidence pointed at that. "Rise of the Guilds" and all that.

I don't think it's fair that Uru was given but one year. One year is enough to get things running, but nothing more. MMOs like WoW seem to be doing better, and contain more things to do according to some posts above. But don't forget that WoW has been there for a few years now, it was allowed to show its potential. Uru was not. During this first year the foundations were laid mainly. Who knows what Uru could have grown to if it was allowed to last?
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Cycreim
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All that is true, Erik. The question is whether Cyan OR GameTap could have upped the ante. Hindsight being what it is, it's easy to criticize, which is why a lot of people are doing it. Nevertheless what's happened has happened, and Uru, as Cyan wanted to play it, was given a chance and it failed to survive.

The choice between shelving Uru indefinitely (as is most likely to happen) and resurrecting a fan-developed and maintained Uru under the supervision of Cyan (as I would like to see happen) is basically a no-brainer. We could have nearly everything we want (on the condition we develop it ourselves), and if Cyan can arrange some way of generating income from Uru, they'd hopefully be able to make enough on a regular basis to run an auth server at least.

I see this as an extremely low-risk venture for Cyan. It will mean that Uru will no longer be under their strict control and grooming but I think the fans would appreciate it, and there's a good chance they could make a bit of money off it. I mean... why not?
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Durin Mephit
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a lot of good ideas and thoughts expressed above.

It seems odd to me that I've needed a half month to figure out where I stand on Uru failing commercially again. I think I'm at peace with myself as much as I can be, amid the conflict of different feelings.

- I really believe that Uru needs an overhaul. My dream on January 1st was a subconscious statement of that. The game needs help - it needs a story overhaul/reboot, and it needs a technology overhaul/reboot. The artwork and the vision are great, but insufficiently substantial. The thought of a really good meal does not feed me.

- I think Uru is in a catch 22 position where it can't get a technical overhaul without being a success, and I'm unsure it can succeed without the technical overhaul. I would love to be proven wrong, but I am skeptical.

- While I appreciate that Cyan has treated Season One as a learning opportunity, I wish they would be more forthcoming with the community about what they believe they've learned. That information should not be proprietary.

- Continuing that thought, I'm not holding my breath for Cyan to be that forthcoming, nor do I trust that Cyan has necessarily learned the correct lessons. That last statement is probably the hardest thing for me to accept, but it is how I feel.

- Despite all of the above, like a moth attracted to flame, I know I'll be interested in whatever happens to Uru in the future...

- ...but as a moth twice burned, I simply cannot place the same level of energies into Uru as I did before, until I see it succeed. This returns us to the catch-22 problem mentioned before... but there is nothing I can do about it. It's Cyan's problem, not mine. I made it my problem over Season One, as did many other players, we did what we could to solve it... and from what I see, from how I feel, Cyan did not deliver what they needed to deliver. It isn't a matter of meeting or falling short of expectations. Expectations are loftier than core needs, and Uru didn't clear that lowest of hurdles.
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Last edited by Durin Mephit on Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Moiety Jean
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

::nods in agreement while reading Marten's post::
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janaba1
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same here, Marten and MJ... Don't like those answers, but there's
nothing else to say, then what has already been expressed... Razz

I'm very glad, that you can see it like this now, Marten, even if it's not
very easy yet... Very Happy
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Professor Askew
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Marten's list as well. And now I have a new concern...a concern for the future. How stupid is that? But, I can't help thinking that any future participation in Uru LIVE will feel contrived or forced...less spontaneous. In fact, I believe that part of the reason for my limited participation in Season 1, aside from the fact that I always seemed to be on at the wrong time, was that I could not recapture that energy I felt during the original Prologue. And I don't think I was alone in that feeling.
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Moiety Jean
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's weird, but I have so much energy for learning to build ages in Blender right now. I know it's tough to do, tougher to do well, and the kinds of dynamic things we can do are currently limited, but the idea of making a great place that I could eventually share with you guys (even if it's just single player) makes me feel happy.
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