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janaba1
Great Tree Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 1639
Location: berlin, germany
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 Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Hi, everybody, 
I've just sent a PM to Beatfox.
Hope he'll recognize that soon and be so kind
to come here and to give us some answers... 
Thank you for your answers so far, Marten.
I hope, Tiella will have a look here as well,
as I've told her, that I'll post those questions
we had on the forum, on Marten's advice... 
| Erik wrote: | You should translate it with the German "man". But that form is somewhat archaic
(at least the Dutch equivalent of "man" is), so you could translate it with "du" in the general sense.
"Du" and "Ihr" are both too direct. He's just talking about the explorers in general. So the form "man"
("men" in Dutch) would be the best, but in Dutch "man" is replaced by "du" mostly. I guess that's the same in German |
Here I have to disagree, Erik. I believe, that Phil is talking "very directly"
to the people, I'd even say "very personally", and he means, what he's
saying. For me was just the question of "in general to everybody" or
directly to the asking person...
I believe "man" would be very indirect and that would be translated as
"one" in English. I, sometimes prefer to speak like that, when giving
an advice or such, to not being someone, who wants to "tell" somebody
anything, or even what he/she should/could do... 
But Phil really has to tell something and wants to give direct advices to
everybody, to as much as possible people, he has a mission, I believe...
IMO...
| Erik wrote: | I disagree with Marten on this... You may correct me, but wasn't Dr. Watson the only one at the scene?
Victor only shows up later, as a part of the plan. Phil (and the others) thought that he was only going
to talk with Dr. Watson as they had agreed, hence the "Why is Victor here?". |
I believe, it doesn't matter in this case, who has been present, cause
it's a fact, that the DRC wants to talk to him...that incident wasn't
initiated by Dr. Watson, but by the DRC...
The reason, why all those questions came up to me, is, that Tiella
used some different pronouns, sometimes formal, when mine was
informal, and sometimes singular, when I used the plural...
So, that's why...
Marten, the example with the "yourself" was an example of course,
and it was a wrong one, as it's self-explanatory...I just choosed any...  |
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Erik
Great Tree Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1121
Location: the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| janaba1 wrote: | | Erik wrote: | You should translate it with the German "man". But that form is somewhat archaic
(at least the Dutch equivalent of "man" is), so you could translate it with "du" in the general sense.
"Du" and "Ihr" are both too direct. He's just talking about the explorers in general. So the form "man"
("men" in Dutch) would be the best, but in Dutch "man" is replaced by "du" mostly. I guess that's the same in German |
Here I have to disagree, Erik. I believe, that Phil is talking "very directly"
to the people, I'd even say "very personally", and he means, what he's
saying. For me was just the question of "in general to everybody" or
directly to the asking person...
I believe "man" would be very indirect and that would be translated as
"one" in English. I, sometimes prefer to speak like that, when giving
an advice or such, to not being someone, who wants to "tell" somebody
anything, or even what he/she should/could do...
But Phil really has to tell something and wants to give direct advices to
everybody, to as much as possible people, he has a mission, I believe...
IMO... |
Phil isn't saying "You that are all standing in front of me should do this and that, but the Explorers that aren't here at the moment wouldn't have to do this", is he? He's just advising the community, so a "man" or "du" should be fine. "Ihr" suggests that his advice only counts for those who happen to be present at that time.
| Quote: | I believe, it doesn't matter in this case, who has been present, cause
it's a fact, that the DRC wants to talk to him... |
True, but Dr. Watson (who appeared to be alone) said he wanted to speak with Phil, immediately followed by Brian's question, obviously directed at Watson and not the DRC in general. (And not directed to Laxman for the reasons I provided in my previous post) |
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janaba1
Great Tree Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 1639
Location: berlin, germany
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Erik wrote: | | ...so a "man" or "du" should be fine.. |
That's absolutely incorrect, as of German, cause in German "Du" is
directed to only one person, but however, Marten explained this case
very nice and correct and I've most of the time chosen that "Ihr" and
sometimes "Du", for example, when it was clear by hints like "yourself"
and such... |
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Erik
Great Tree Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1121
Location: the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Then, why are you asking if you already know the answer?
And I guess Beatfox was addressing Dr. Watson, because he mentions Watson exactly after the "you" (as an apposition). |
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janaba1
Great Tree Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 1639
Location: berlin, germany
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| janaba1 wrote: | The reason, why all those questions came up to me, is, that Tiella
used some different pronouns, sometimes formal, when mine was
informal, and sometimes singular, when I used the plural...
So, that's why... |
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Durin Mephit
Great Tree Officer
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 3119
Location: Tigard, OR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Erik wrote: | | Quote: | BRIAN FIOCA
Why can't you talk to him here? |
I disagree with Marten on this... You may correct me, but wasn't Dr. Watson the only one at the scene? Victor only shows up later, as a part of the plan. Phil (and the others) thought that he was only going to talk with Dr. Watson as they had agreed, hence the "Why is Victor here?". |
If Victor Laxman has not arrived at the time this line is given, then Erik is correct and the singular form is the better choice. I'm sorry, I'm answering these questions without the script at hand, right now. I should know better than to do that.
| Erik wrote: | | Marten wrote: | Everyone should always formally address the 5 primary members of the DRC.
- Dr. Watson
- Dr. Kodama
- Victor Laxman
- Marie Sutherland
- Michael Engberg |
Oops! In the Dutch translation they are sometimes addressed formally, but informally most of the time. The DRC members are adults and most of the Explorers are adults, so they could address each other informally in my opinion. Though if someone uses "please" at the end of a sentence, I let them address the DRC members formally.
Correct me if I'm wrong. |
Although the explorers are adults, I want the DRC to be addressed with more formal titles in the foreign translations for a reason - to highlight the relationship between the DRC and the explorers.
Informal addresses would be appropriate if the DRC members were friends with the explorers, if they were truly approachable and candid, if you could imagine yourself going out to a bar with them and having a good time together. But that is not the sort of relationship that the explorers and the DRC had. The DRC positioned themselves as an authority and seemed at times disdainful and dismissive of explorer concerns, questions, and ideas.
It may be appropriate to use an informal pronoun when an explorer has already addressed a DRC member by his or her first name. But, keeping track of which explorers have done that throughout a translation adds more work and I don't think it is worth it.*
Douglas and Phil, on the other hand, were more "down to earth". They mingled with the explorers, spent more time among us, and tried to be our friends. Douglas seemed genuine in his interest of what explorers had to say, and Phil seemed genuine in the message he was trying to share. And so, for these persons, it is appropriate to address them informally.
Some opinions of mine, related to this topic:
* Even today, I feel it is a bit rude to address a DRC member by first name without first asking for his or her consent. I remember a few months ago that someone asked Marie Sutherland if he could talk to her on a first-name basis, and she agreed. That was a nice sign of mutual respect and in that case, that explorer has earned the right to speak to Ms. Sutherland as "Marie."
* I've tried to start calling Douglas Sharper "Douglas" when I speak of him. In this case, it's sort of the opposite of Marie's - to me, it seems rude to call him "Sharper." Just as it isn't right to use an informal address to someone you should address formally, it can be an insult to use someone's last name when you should be on an informal basis with that person.
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Last edited by Durin Mephit on Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Erik
Great Tree Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1121
Location: the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Should I change the scripts for Episode 6 and 7? |
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Durin Mephit
Great Tree Officer
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 3119
Location: Tigard, OR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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I've made some edits to my above posting.
If you'd like to change the scripts, that is up to you, Erik. I'll implement any changes you provide, for any of the episodes.
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janaba1
Great Tree Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 1639
Location: berlin, germany
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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I just realized, that my initial question wasn't answered yet...
| janaba1 wrote: | | So, how does Phil talk to him? Formally or informally? |
...when Phil's asking Dr. Watson: Dr. Watson, are you near the bridge?
for example
I think, he's talking informally to any of the DRC members, but I
actually don't know it really... |
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Beatfox
Explorer
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Got the message to come here & contribute my input - thanks, Janaba!
| janaba1 wrote: |
1) In the untranslated script on page 7:
PHIL
Dr. Watson, are you near the bridge?
As everybody is calling this man Dr. Watson, it's not
clear, how people talk to him exactly...
So, how does Phil talk to him? Formally or informally?
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Watson was a DRC member, whereas Phil was a Restoration Engineer. So Watson would have been Phil's superior. It would make the most sense for Phil to be addressing Watson formally, IMHO.
| janaba1 wrote: |
2) Another issue on pages 4/5 and the following ones:
PHIL
So, you must weigh, based on partial knowledge, who you will trust.
and
PHIL
If you trust only yourself then you will fail.
I believe, Phil is speaking his words of advice to everybody present and
in general, but sometimes I'm not sure, if he answers directly to the
persons, like Tutelary e.g.
So, the above mentioned answers could be spoken in singular and most
of the rest in the plural... maybe like
PHIL
Be careful of what you think you must know. Sometimes it simply lets you
trust only in yourself. /shrug
Or should we use the plural pronouns generally?
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While Phil is responding to questions asked by one person, the "you" he uses definitely refers to the individual members of the entire community (whether present or not). So he's addressing all Explorers, but on a very personal, individual level.
| janaba1 wrote: |
3) Similar case on page 10:
BRIAN FIOCA
Why can't you talk to him here?
Is he asking the whole DRC, resp. Dr. Watson and Laxman?
Or does he ask this Dr. Watson or Laxman?
You know, what I mean? I'd say "Ihr" not "Du"... like that...
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My impression, especially considering Laxman's preceding line ("Sorry, Phil. Just come with us."), is that Brian is addressing the "us" that Laxman mentions - namely, Laxman and Dr. Watson.
| janaba1 wrote: |
...and again on page 11:
PA'LUA
Please, take good care of Phil, Dr. Watson.
BRIAN FIOCA
How can we trust you? You are abducting him!
BEATFOX
I have confidence in you (in you all?), Dr. Watson. I know you'll do the
right thing. I sincerely hope you don't betray that confidence.
Do they ask and speak to Dr. Watson or does Pa'lua for example
ask the whole DRC folks to take good care?
Plural or singular pronouns is the question
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Regarding my own quote, I was speaking to Dr. Watson specifically. Out of all the DRC members, I trusted him the most, and I wanted to convey to him my hopes that he would keep both himself and the DRC as a whole on the morally right path in their dealings with Phil.
As for Pa'lua's quote, I can't say for certain, but I suspect it's spoken in the same vein as mine.
And I agree that Brian's quote should be a plural address (to Dr. Watson and Laxman), unless he steps in and says otherwise.
Hope that helps!  |
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Erik
Great Tree Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1121
Location: the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My impression, especially considering Laxman's preceding line ("Sorry, Phil. Just come with us."), is that Brian is addressing the "us" that Laxman mentions - namely, Laxman and Dr. Watson. |
So it was I who mixed up the script.  Sorry Marten!
Thank you for providing feedback here, Beatfox! |
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Durin Mephit
Great Tree Officer
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 3119
Location: Tigard, OR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks a million for the input, Beatfox! I feel much more comfortable having the input of the persons who actually were there.
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Durin Mephit * Member of Guild of Messengers - Unless otherwise stated, opinions are mine only and not Guild endorsed.
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janaba1
Great Tree Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 1639
Location: berlin, germany
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you so much, Beatfox, for taking your precious time
on a Sunday to come here and help us clearing things up... /cheer
And you're right, Marten
| Quote: | | I feel much more comfortable having the input of the persons who actually were there. |
Don't worry, Erik, we all don't know exactly, what happened,
we can only speculate until somebody from the past steps up
to tell us... |
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Beatfox
Explorer
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| janaba1 wrote: |
Don't worry, Erik, we all don't know exactly, what happened,
we can only speculate until somebody from the past steps up
to tell us...
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Heck, even those of us who were there aren't entirely certain of everything. I had a hard enough time just trying to follow the relevant parts of the chat as it was happening in realtime. And I was only getting about 2 frames per second, so it was near impossible to visually make out what all was happening on the bridge - ESPECIALLY from the Kings Lookout.
Heh. Speaking of which... while I was just now checking up on the MYSTlore site for the proper name of that lookout, I realized that Sutherland Point has a similar view of the bridge. Now I'm not even sure which spot I was at... 
(Not that it matters all that much, I suppose. And it would be a little late to correct at this point, anyway.)  |
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Durin Mephit
Great Tree Officer
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 3119
Location: Tigard, OR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not certain if the Hall of Kings was open yet at that time, although it does offer a slightly closer view of the bridge.
Oh well, it's all filmed at the Kings Lookout for this video.
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Durin Mephit * Member of Guild of Messengers - Unless otherwise stated, opinions are mine only and not Guild endorsed.
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