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dcos
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Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 1174
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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | My feeble imagination cannot conjure a motivation for the Bahro to commit such a deed.
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And my imagination also fails me when I try to contemplate some of the deeds commited by our species. That is the key point I think that I am trying to make: the Bahro are completly alien to us. This has a number of implications, but I'm going to try to keep it relivant. Also this is the last I'm going to say on the Bahro + Negilahn in this particular thread. I am however enjoying this discussion though and so may start a new post elsewhere to consider the issue of the Bahro in a more general context.
- First off our morality does not necissarily apply to them. Heck humans have a hard time agreeing what is and is not moral and one area this is particular noticible is in the treatment of non-sentient life forms. This means that the occasional killing of an animal for sport or for (as Eleri suggested) the benifit of an eco system is not inconceivable for them as it isn't for humans.
-Secondly as hinted above in reference to humans there might not even be agreement within the Bahro species about what is "moral." The impression given by Star Trek that all non-human species can be classified by broad sweeping statements (Klingons = Warriors, Ferengi = Merchants) is I think deeply speciest(?). This is the first sentient species, beyond a part D'ni that we have encountered as a species ourselves. We need to consider what this means a bit more I think.
Also I've heard lots of Rumours about "The Tablet" and "Escher" and I don't know what to believe but the idea that The Bahro are still not free and worse under a malicious influence is not totally beyond reason. While I don't see why anyone would want to send a bunch of bahro out to attack some animal is beyond me but I'm just saying...
Finally I would just like to say that
I don't hate the Bahro I just don't know about them to trust them yet,
I trust Yeesha's motives, not necissarily her actions,
I believe they should be considered innocent until proven guilty but that they shouldn't be discounted without reason. |
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Anna Catherine
Folklorist
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose this could have been done by the Bahro... but it could have been done by just about anyone or anything as easily.
I know people have been making the association between the lack of tracks and linking. That's a good explanation, although not the only one. The Bahro aren't the only ones who can link, though. Even if it was done by linking, that doesn't necessarily mean they did it.
Because the Bahro are so different from us, it's hard to think of reasons they might do something like this (although Blade's idea is a good one.) I can think of a couple of reasons someone human(oid) might have done this, though, other than just "fun" or random violence:
1.) This could be used to discredit the DRC. It makes an Age they released look unsafe, and so draws all their procedures and judgment into question. It looks especially bad for Cate, who has been pushing so hard to open more areas. If someone wanted to sabotage the DRC without hurting any humans, this would be a really good way to do it.
2.) This could be used to inflame people against the Bahro. People have been nervous around them since the Scream Incident, and I kind of get the feeling they're waiting for the other shoe to drop. What if someone decided to drop that shoe themselves to try to put further divides between us and the Bahro? I can think of some people who might want to do that... including one who once referred to them as "abominations." If someone could make the Bahro seem like a threat, it would be much easier to rally the explorers around themselves.
I'm not saying the Bahro couldn't have done this. Sure they could. But... so could pretty much anyone else. Or it could have been some type of animal predator (although the declining animal populations in all the Pod Ages makes me suspect whatever is going on is not limited to Negilahn, and therefore not a native predator, at least.) We just don't know. I see no reason to blame the Bahro, though, especially while we know so little.
I think we have to try to find some way to communicate with the Bahro, the sooner the better. I could see this situation rapidly getting out of hand, and I'd prefer to nip that in the bud. I think this situation needs to be investigated a lot more, and from several directions, including more exploration of Negilahn and more attempts to understand the Bahro.
Annacat
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tetters
Explorer
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 35
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| dcosgrove wrote: |
Also I've heard lots of Rumours about "The Tablet" and "Escher" and I don't know what to believe but the idea that The Bahro are still not free and worse under a malicious influence is not totally beyond reason. While I don't see why anyone would want to send a bunch of bahro out to attack some animal is beyond me but I'm just saying...
[/b] |
I don't like the sound of that one bit. Not at all...
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tetters
Explorer
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 35
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Anna Catherine wrote: |
I think we have to try to find some way to communicate with the Bahro, the sooner the better.
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As to how to do this, I'm at a loss...Any ideas???
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WOW! What a ride!"
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Anna Catherine
Folklorist
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As to how to do this, I'm at a loss...Any ideas??? |
Sure, lots, most of them stupid. 
Seriously, though, I've been thinking about this for awhile, but it's taken on a new urgency since this incident. (We discussed this a bit last night In Cavern, actually.)
I'm going to do some reading up, maybe talk to some colleagues, and see if I can come up with any good ideas. 
Annacat
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Professor Askew
Great Tree Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 2532
Location: Bloomfield, CT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Reading this thread....my mind is trying to put order to it....seeking an answer.....clarity.....
"Destruction is coming...."
I'm leaning more and more toward a D'ni survivor as the instigator to all this mess. Or maybe it's D'ni survivors plural.
I don't know...suddenly I'm becoming nervous. Perhaps most of the recent Bahro screams have been warnings? Perhaps they're recent appearances in the Hoods....I don't know.
I have to think some more.
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dcos
Great Tree Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 1174
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting theories Anna I find them both quite convincing and I like the idea of trying to create a line of communication between us and the Bahro.
Whatever is happening, its not good. I think we can all agree to that much.
Good luck down there guys, and keep safe. |
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Anna Catherine
Folklorist
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm leaning more and more toward a D'ni survivor as the instigator to all this mess. Or maybe it's D'ni survivors plural. |
Me too, Prof. Me too.
I don't think it's any more fair to blame the D'ni out of hand than to blame the Bahro, so please understand this is just one possible theory, not an accusation, but try this on for size:
Imagine you're a typical D'ni who survived the Fall. How do you feel about what's going on in the Cavern now? What are you going to do about it?
Based on what we've seen of them so far, aside from the odd progressive like Atrus, I would think they would be pretty upset to see a lot of Bookworlders crawling all over their Cavern, making changes, using their books, running the show. I would think they'd be pretty anxious to get the status quo back.
How would you do that? Well, killing all of us is impractical and messy. Sending everyone away isn't feasible. So what's the best way to get back control of the Cavern? I think... pretty much this.
First, make us distrust the Bahro. Make us fear them. Make us feel the need to protect ourselves from them, but make sure we realize we really can't. That isolates us from a potential powerful ally, and gives those who could "protect" us more control over us. You can't get rid of the "abominations," but you can use them... like the D'ni always have.
Second, make us distrust the DRC. Make them seem ineffectual, make them seem weak. Make us think we need someone more powerful to protect us.
Then enter the D'ni. Most people aren't going to willingly give up control... unless they feel they're being threatened. A position that would normally be unpopular looks a lot better when it's that or the threat of violent death. Make us think following them is the only way to save ourselves. Convince us to give them control.
Then... things are back to normal. The D'ni are in charge, the Bahro are feared and shunned, and the Bookworlders are back in their place... which means under the D'ni, naturally. Things are tidily under control.
Destruction? Not physical destruction, no. But it would be the destruction of the community we've established, and of the Cavern we've built-- in favour of someone else's idea of what D'ni ought to be.
Because remember, we're Bookworlders too. We may look more like the D'ni than the Bahro do, but at the end of the day, we're also outsiders, and the average D'ni will be slow to forget that. We need to be really cautious about giving up control to any D'ni that seems too down on the Bahro or other outsiders... because at the end of the day, we're also in that category. (This is one reason I never totally got the fans of Esher or Gehn...)
Sorry for the involved explanation, and yeah, it's just one possible theory. But I do think we should be cautious, and not assume the Bahro are doing it and ignore other theories.
| Quote: | | As to how to do this, I'm at a loss...Any ideas??? |
A bit more on this. I don't think verbal communication is the way to go. We don't even know how important (if at all) it is to the Bahro, let alone what their vocalizations mean.
We have to go symbols. I'm still considering the best way to go about that, but I think the ideal is a combination of pictorial representations and body language. Pictures may be ignored and both those and body language may be misinterpreted, but they're the best tools we have, and I think we're better off using them both. Again, still thinking about how best to do this and the details, but I think it's safe to say a symbolic approach to communication will be most effective.
Annacat
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Professor Askew
Great Tree Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 2532
Location: Bloomfield, CT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent theory, Annacat. I agree that any surviving D'ni would be extremely unthrilled about our presence in the Cavern.
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BladeLakem
Great Tree Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, we don't have enough data to make any reasonable assumptions, only wild speculation.
We need more data.
Any details Rils can give, that would be good. And any details from Sharper would be good as well. Can we get Brian to talk to him? Sharper will listen to Brian, I expect - give him a straight story. Hopefully, we can find out if this is something we really should be worried about or not.
In the meantime, I'd suggest that Negilahn might be a bad place to hang out. The pod is breached - I'm not certain that it can provide any real safety.
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tetters
Explorer
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 35
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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If i remember correctly, then don't use the "snake" symbol...they fear that one.
Are you suggesting that we use ourselves to construct these symbols? Logistically speaking it could be very hard to get people to co-operate.
I'm thinking more along the lines of what tools do we have available, could we use the fire marbles or cones in our ages to make a connect the dots?
/me wishes he had a tablet to write on...
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"Life is not a journey to the grave with intentions of arriving safely in a pretty well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming...
WOW! What a ride!"
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Anna Catherine
Folklorist
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Unfortunately, we don't have enough data to make any reasonable assumptions, only wild speculation.
We need more data. |
100% in agreement.
| Quote: | | In the meantime, I'd suggest that Negilahn might be a bad place to hang out. The pod is breached - I'm not certain that it can provide any real safety. |
I'm willing to take the risk, personally. I would argue that Negilahn is exactly the place some of us need to be right now. I'm not saying everyone should camp out there, but if we avoid that Age it'll be a lot harder to figure out what's going on. No one should feel obligated to go to Negilahn, or feel bad if they consider the risk to their safety (and yeah, it's definitely a risk) is too great.
I think those of us who feel comfortable doing it should be there, though. I don't know that much about animals and biology so if it's a predator I won't be much use, but if it's a person, especially D'ni or Bahro... I think having someone with a background in ethnology around might not be a bad idea. I know it might not be safe, but I'm willing to give up some safety to try to get to the bottom of this and prevent further danger. That's just me, though.
Basically, when it comes to Negilahn and safety, I think people should go with their gut and do what seems best to them.
| Quote: | | I'm thinking more along the lines of what tools do we have available, could we use the fire marbles or cones in our ages to make a connect the dots? |
I think a Tablet might confuse the issue at this point, actually. We don't want to seem like we're trying to control them, because that won't get us off to a good start.
These ideas are good, though. I'm reluctant to involve too many people (as making a shape would) because the more people, the more unpredictability, and this is going to be unpredictable enough.
Some people have reported seeing Bahro in the 'hoods, so I'm going to start there and see if I can get any of them to respond to me. I'll let you know how it goes.
Annacat
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Rils
Great Tree Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 815
Location: Screw Ballard, I live in Edmonds now
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hey guys, just wanted to check in. Sorry for going AWOL on the conversation last night, fiancee called after an 11 hour workday and needed to download. You understand...
There's a lot to sift through here, I'll hafta read through it careful and formulate an intelligent reply. On our trip, we didn't see anything to really suggest it was the bahro, but we didn't see anything that sed it wasn't.
And just cuz Prof posted his DRC note here as well, and it bugged me, I hafta say this... we didn't "flee" from the scene. It was disturbing to say the least; a blenderized animal always is. But we took observations, notes, I got a few samples to run at a buddys lab, we scouted the area for tracks and signs and clues as to what happened... We didn't hang around and break out the picnic lunch, but we didn't just turn tail and run either...
No hard feelings, just wanted to clarify!
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Professor Askew
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Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 2532
Location: Bloomfield, CT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, Rils! I'm ticked at Sharper and I painted the entire group with the ugly brush. For all I know I might have made water in my pants at the sight of shredded Scorpi-ape. (Plus, I think a part of me wanted to see what kind of reaction I'd get from Mr. Moustache.)
I'm looking forward to your report. It must have been quite exciting, really.
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BladeLakem
Great Tree Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Anna Catherine wrote: |
Some people have reported seeing Bahro in the 'hoods, so I'm going to start there and see if I can get any of them to respond to me. I'll let you know how it goes. |
Do we know what symbols to try? What do the Bahro speak?
If you need to find a way to communicate symbols, try ASCII art uploaded to an imager. Wouldn't be too hard if the symbol is relatively simple and you only need to show one or two symbols....
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